These started to find the perfect bread item to make leftover turkey sandwiches on. Tried as bread and never reliable, rise to high or not enough. After much trial and error these have been pretty fool proof. Son in law loves and says its not Thanksgiving till the leftover sandwich is eaten. Feel free to change up the spices to your taste preferences. I use fresh ground hard red wheat in this recipe so whole wheat flour would replace that. I use a bread machine to mix up and rise the dough. I made for use with packaged yeast for ease for begining bakers like my daughter