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    You are in: Home / Community Forums / Breads & Baking / Poolish baking - failure
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    Poolish baking - failure

    Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:35 am Groupie
    Hi all,

    This is my first sourdough bread with baking result in complete mess.

    Breadmaker - Kenwood BM450
    loaf 500g

    white flour for bread 2.4 oz
    water 1/2 cup (cold)
    1/8 tsp inst yeast

    Final Dough
    white flour for bread 8 oz
    water 6 oz (cold)
    1/2 teaspoon inst yeast
    1 tsp salt
    sour cream 2 oz for making tender crust
    all of the poolish

    Salted cashew nuts 1 oz (chopped)
    Walnut 1 oz (chopped)

    Combined all ingredients for the poolish in a glass bowl. Covered the bowl with plastic wrap, leaving it at room temperature overnight.

    Next morning the poolish looked like this;

    Poured all ingredients of the final dough in the baking pan.

    Preheat time 3 min
    Mixing time 20 min
    Rising time 90 min
    Baking time 50 min
    Baking temperature 300deg F
    (there is no temperature setting on the breadmaker. To reach higher temperature requires increasing the baking time)

    Baking result likes this;

    - Bread top completely flat
    - bread texture is poor with too soft bread.

    Would it be;
    insufficient yeast ?
    insufficient baking time ?


    Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:07 am
    Forum Host
    Sourdough breads are a bit hard in the breadmaker - they are not consistent in the amount of time that they need to rise. Does your machine have a bake only cycle? It might be better to let the dough rise for as long as it needs to then bake. Recipes where the bread is made completely in the machine usually use a full complement of yeast with the starter, so as to ensure certainty of timing.

    This is a chart for troubleshooting problems,

    There are some sourdough recipes for the bread machine posted here perhaps one of them would be more successful for you.

    Sourdough Bread for the Bread Machine
    Sourdough White for the Bread Machine
    Sourdough French Bread - Abm (Amish Bread Starter)
    Sourdough Bread (for bread machines)
    Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:22 am Groupie
    Thanks for your threads.

    Kenwood Breadmaker BM450 comes with "Knead Only" and "Bake Only" function.

    The baking program was pre-set by me.

    Program Setting:

    1. Pre-Heat
    0 – 60mins

    2. Knead 1 (slow turning)
    0 – 10mins

    3. Knead 2
    0 – 30mins

    4. Rise 1
    0 – 60mins

    5. Knead 3 - 15secs Non changeable
    Kneader will not operate if Rise 2 set to 0

    6. Rise 2
    0 – 2hrs

    7. Knead 4 - 15secs Non changeable
    Kneader will not operate if Rise 3 set to 0

    8. Rise 3
    0 – 2hrs

    9. Baking
    0 – 1hr 30mins

    10. Keep Warm
    0 – 60mins

    May-be overnight is NOT sufficient for starter to ferment. I'll increase it to >24 hrs in next baking.

    Is there any conversion reference for converting 1 cup starter to gm/oz? It is NOT easy to measure the starter by volumn.


    Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:08 pm
    Forum Host
    I treat starter as more of a liquid and measure in liquid measure cup which would be 230 ml
    Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:55 am Groupie
    Baked another sourdough bread in Kenwood breadmaker BM450 with following recipe. Successful;

    Sourdough starter
    1/2 cup white bread flour
    1/2 cup tap water
    fermentation time 24 hrs

    500g loaf

    warm water (45 deg C) 100ml
    sourdough starter 125g
    salt 1/2 tsp
    white bread flour 205g
    dried instant yeast 1/2 tsp

    Place all ingredients in the baking pan in order.
    Select Kenwood BM450 Program 1 - Basic Bread.

    Almond dice 4 tsp
    Sultanas 4 tsp (slighly chopped)

    Total cycle time 3:05 hrs
    Kneading time, total 0:34 hrs
    Dispenser actuated (time remaining 2:45 hrs)
    Kneading restarts (1st) (time remaining 2:05 hrs)
    (about 15 seconds)
    Kneading restarts (2nd) (time remaining 1:40 hrs)
    (about 15 seconds)
    Total Rise time 1:46 hrs
    Baking time 0:45 hrs (time remaining 0:45 hrs)

    A soft loaf baked with crispy crust but not tender.
    Sourdough bread

    Sourdough bread slice
    nice texture but looking different to yeast bread.

    In my next round I'll add 40g sour cream or plain yogurt to make the crust tender. Also I'll increase the starter fermentation to 48 hrs or more and delete instant yeast.

    Comment and suggestion would be appreciated. TIA

    Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:05 pm
    Forum Host
    This recipe looks very interesting, with the sultanas and almonds. Thanks for keeping us apprised of your experiments!
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:52 am Groupie
    Baked another loaf. Unsuccessful, NO RISE

    500g loaf

    Sourdough starter
    1/2 cup white bread flour
    1/2 cup tap water
    fermentation time 48 hrs at room temperature, approx 75deg F

    warm warter 100ml (113deg F)
    sourdough starter 185g
    salt 1/2 tsp
    bread flour 205g
    yogurt, strawberry, non-fat 20g
    (no plain yogurt available)

    Almond dice 4 tsp 28g
    Sultanas (slighly chopped) 28g

    Kenwood BM450 Program 1 Basic White Bread

    Total cycle time 3:05 hrs
    1st kneading (slow) 0:03 hrs
    2nd kneading (fast) 0:31 hrs
    Rise, 1st 0:26 hrs
    3rd kneading (fast) 15 seconds
    Rise, 2nd 0:25 hrs
    4th kneading (fast) 15 seconds
    Rise, 3rd 0:55 hrs
    Baking 0:45 hrs

    Possibly yeast is indispensable for baking sourdough bread in breadmaker, disregarding its quantity. I can't speak for electric oven because I don't have it here.

    Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:29 am
    Forum Host
    I think you really need yeast in bread machine sourdoughs because sourdough is so unpredictable in rising.
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:53 pm Groupie
    If it still needs yeast to rise then what will be the difference between pure yeast bread without adding sourdough starter and that with sourdough starter added?
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:29 pm
    Forum Host
    The starter will still provide flavor, but because the bread rises more quickly due to the addition of the commercial yeast, the flavor will not be as fully developed. A slow rise helps flavor development. This is why some people like to mix up a dough and have it rise overnight in the refrigerator - the cool environment slows down the rise and enhances flavor.

    Sourdough starter generally requires a longer rise, and the amount of starter used and its strength makes the length of time very variable. I make this recipe, Artisan Sourdough Garlic Bread, which calls of just 1/4 teaspoon of sourdough starter (although I usually use 2 tbl) in the sponge - which rises overnight -, and then just 1/2 tsp commercial yeast in the bread itself - it requires a longer rise than the normal recipe that calls for a standard amount of dry yeast. Different batches of the same recipe will vary in time also, depending on all types of variables.

    The bread machine requires a set timetable, so using just starter is difficult.
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:31 pm Groupie
    The design principle of a bread machine are;
    - putting all ingredients in the baking pan
    - press the button
    - the machine does the rest of the work and delivers a bread to its user.

    Eventhough I can mix/dough the ingredients in the machine, put the dough in the fridge to develop flavour, accelerate the rise time in microwave and bake the dough in the machine. But it defeats the aforesaid principle.

    I think my experiment on baking sourdough bread in bread machine shall halt until I can discover a new way doing it in a bread machine

    Thanks for your recipe. I'll test it. I think my Kenwood breadmaker BM450 can do the job except building the baking temperature to 475°F because there is only ONE heating element in the baking chamber. I'll see what will happen and come back to this thread when there is a result available.

    Are the garlic coves chopped?

    I like garlic bread especially its smell. The garlic bread served in restaurant is quite tasty.
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:56 pm
    Forum Host
    This particular recipe uses whole cloves of garlic. There are different types of garlic bread, some use a garlic paste that is spread on bread or cloves of garlic are rubbed onto toasted bread, etc.

    The bread machine is a wonderful invention but it cannot handle all type and styles of bread. The technology has certain limitations. i value it for its superior kneading capability, so that I use it for nearly all bread recipes, even if I am not baking in the machine.
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