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    You are in: Home / Community Forums / Community Cafe / Shooting in Texas is nation’s 5th school shooting in 2013
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    Shooting in Texas is nation’s 5th school shooting in 2013

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    Dib's
    Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:27 am
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    K9 Owned wrote:
    UnknownChef86 wrote:
    Dib's wrote:
    I do question this namby pamby "you are the only shell on the beach and Mommy and Daddy think you are the most super special person on the planet and your light shines the brightest cause you are a super special poopsie doopsie" blah blah blah, as well as "No Child Fail's" so lets give everyone a A, and if that doesn't work pass them anyway. If that doesn't work let's lower the standard so that the real achievers don't get any credit(frustration maybe?)..... That's a helluva way to prepare them for the real world, when Mr. Snarf won't hire them at the 90K they know they deserve (cause Mommy and Daddy said............).

    I can, and so can you go back through history and figure out it's the male part of the human species that commits the majority of these horrible crimes. So test. Not some silly "let my family Dr. ask 5 questions and out we go" type tests. Let's dig a little deeper, shall we.

    But we won't, because it's "not my child", so let's find something else to blame.

    The dog ate my homework.

    Amen!!!

    And as for "something else to blame"...? It must be the gun's fault, right? Nasty, evil gun.

    Not!

    Please don't get me wrong...my heart goes out to those involved. I'm not intending to make light of their pain and suffering in any way, shape or form. They have nothing but my concern and sympathy.

    What frustrates me is how the media will twist this. Again. Get to the root of this stuff...yes! But if guns are banned, only the law-abiding citizens will comply...and the rest of us will be S.O.L... and left with nothing but knives, rocks and maybe Tazers to defend ourselves against the criminals that have the guns.

    I can't say I necessarily agree with the male part, though I think you're correct in that they've (to my knowledge) all been male. But there's definitely a screw loose in how this has been approached. Something definitely needs to be done.

    Sorry...I'll get off my soapbox, now.

    Praying for those involved in the shooting...along with their friends and families.

    I'm not trying to encourage a brouhaha here but I am very curious about this particular statement. I have read it over and over and over again as justification for having an armed population but often wonder where are the stats to back it up. In all of the G8 countries with gun control (not banned - just controlled) the rate of violent crimes involving weapons are a small percentage per capita of those seen in America. Does anyone have any stats proving this as a fact or is it just popular fiction that sounds semi reasonable?

    Again, no intention of being confrontational but I am very curious as to which statistics prove this theory.


    What you have been mulling over " But if guns are banned, only the law-abiding citizens will comply...and the rest of us will be S.O.L" is different from what you are asking about, just so I understand the question. You want to know if there are stats to back up "gun control laws" and not an all out ban?

    I can tell you bans do not work, and any stats are dependant on who is controlling the poll and revelant laws when comparing countries.

    Sweden, with one of the lowest homicide rates in Europe, has the second-highest rate of gun ownership in the EU, at 32 firearms per 100 people, trailing only Cyprus.

    Japan has some of the toughest gun ownership laws in the world, while Switzerland requires all males serving the armed forces to store their rifles and ammunition in their homes in case of attack. Yet both have among the world’s lowest rates of gun-related deaths.

    I have no idea what their laws are re commiting a murder compared to the US, how much time would be served.....are their laws a deterant to comitting violent crimes with a gun? I don't know what their mental health laws are either.

    Nothing will work as long as existing gun laws are not enforced...ie living in a undisciplined society. Discipline ensures people don't commit crimes and those who commit crimes are made examples of, a rare event in the US, or so I have found.

    Nothing will work unless everyone is held accountable-for example this would include the Department Of Justice and their botched attempt at gun running to the Mexican Drug Cartels. Why would any citizen give up their right to carry when their own Government can't be trusted to monitor and enforce existing gun laws when they pertain to "them"?

    As for stats-
    A comprehensive Harvard study shows that the burden of proof that "more guns equal more deaths and fewer guns equal less death" has not been observed by evidence across a wide array of nations. This can also be seen in the United States over the past two decades, as more guns have gone into circulation while both the violent crime rate and homicide rate (including those committed with firearms) have declined dramatically.


    Both the UK and Australia instituted strict gun control legislation which basically eliminated private gun ownership in 1997. However, neither countries' legislation had an impact on lowering violent crime, and in both cases violent crime actually went up in the years following the enactment of the gun legislation.

    Some gun control advocates, like Piers Morgan, would point towards the lower homicide rate of each country, but the fact of that matter is that both countries enjoyed the same lower homicide rates than the United States even before enacting their gun legislation, making those claims disingenuous.

    Moreover, despite the UK having its gun ban, the violent crime rate is still far above that of the United States, and the country has also earned the title of violent crime capital of Europe.


    None of that matters as long as we don't have a deep, painful discussion about mental health(the rights of an individual vs community safety) the actual causes of violent crime in America and why it is tollerated by so many.
    racrgal
    Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:48 pm
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    Dibs you stated that very well.

    I will add that a "ban" on anything doesn't stop whatever is being banned. During prohibition alcohol was banned but alcohol was still obtainable. Street drugs & possession of prescription drugs without the proper prescription, are banned. The drug problem in the US continues to get worse not better. Illegal drugs & black market script drugs are still obtained by the people who really want them. Anything banned can be obtained by people who really want the banned item.

    California has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country. We have background checks and waiting periods. Still, there are over 19,000 illegal firearms in California. These firearms weren't obtained by law abiding citizens through the proper channels. Currently the gun stores in Southern California are swamped before further curtailment of purchases.
    Dee514
    Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:31 pm
    Forum Host
    racrgal wrote:
    Dibs you stated that very well.

    I will add that a "ban" on anything doesn't stop whatever is being banned. During prohibition alcohol was banned but alcohol was still obtainable. Street drugs & possession of prescription drugs without the proper prescription, are banned. The drug problem in the US continues to get worse not better. Illegal drugs & black market script drugs are still obtained by the people who really want them. Anything banned can be obtained by people who really want the banned item.

    California has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country. We have background checks and waiting periods. Still, there are over 19,000 illegal firearms in California. These firearms weren't obtained by law abiding citizens through the proper channels. Currently the gun stores in Southern California are swamped before further curtailment of purchases.

    The same thing happened in NYS - people rushing out to buy what they could before the Gov's rushed new gun laws took effect on Jan 15. He was in such a hurry to pass the damn law, that he made it illegal for law enforcement to carry weapons with clips that held more than 7 rounds (most service weapons have 10, 14, or more rounds per clip). LOL He had to amend the law. In his "infinite wisdom", he also made it illegal for any law abiding gun owner who owns a gun with a clip that holds more than 7 rounds to sell that clip (to comply with the new law) within the State of NY....we have to go out of state to sell them...What the hell sense does that make? "Catch 22" there.....laws about transporting guns/ammo, etc across state lines. icon_eek.gif
    Terese
    Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:33 pm
    Food.com Groupie
    Dib's wrote:
    Both the UK and Australia instituted strict gun control legislation which basically eliminated private gun ownership in 1997. However, neither countries' legislation had an impact on lowering violent crime, and in both cases violent crime actually went up in the years following the enactment of the gun legislation.

    Regarding the gun buyback scheme in Australia. Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard recently wrote an article for the New York Times. The quote below is from that article.

    "The Australian Institute of Criminology found that gun-related murders and suicides fell sharply after 1996. The American Law and Economics Review found that our gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides by 74 percent. In the 18 years before the 1996 reforms, Australia suffered 13 gun massacres — each with more than four victims — causing a total of 102 deaths. There has not been a single massacre in that category since 1996."

    Moderator's note: Edited to fix quote formatting.
    JoyfulCook
    Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 am
    Forum Host
    Terese wrote:
    Dib's wrote:
    Both the UK and Australia instituted strict gun control legislation which basically eliminated private gun ownership in 1997. However, neither countries' legislation had an impact on lowering violent crime, and in both cases violent crime actually went up in the years following the enactment of the gun legislation.

    Regarding the gun buyback scheme in Australia. Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard recently wrote an article for the New York Times. The quote below is from that article.

    "The Australian Institute of Criminology found that gun-related murders and suicides fell sharply after 1996. The American Law and Economics Review found that our gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides by 74 percent. In the 18 years before the 1996 reforms, Australia suffered 13 gun massacres — each with more than four victims — causing a total of 102 deaths. There has not been a single massacre in that category since 1996."

    Yes I agree. no massacres in the UK or here in Australia for years. BUT it seems to be the fact that these military style weapons can still be bought.

    Each persons background is checked here. but have to be honest. no matter where these awful crimes are being committed it starts with the attitude of the people and the casual way in which they seem to be carried out. I really dont know its going to be fixed either.

    Here in Australia and also in the UK each gun holder has to have a gun safe to lock their weapons in, this also makes it safe from anyone just deciding to take it out and use it illegally - wish I had a magic wand to wave over this ugly spate of crimes icon_sad.gif

    Moderator's note: Edited to fix quote formatting.
    Molly53
    Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:55 am
    Forum Host
    Another one in Atlanta: READ MORE

    Thank goodness nobody was killed.

    Great Britain had a series of violent events including a Sandy Hook type tragedy some years ago and this is what happened there: READ MORE It rather answers the question of "when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns".
    JoyfulCook
    Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:13 am
    Forum Host
    Yes Molly that was dreadful but it was in 1996 and it was this that prompted the gun laws so be tightened.

    We will never stop things like this completely but gun safes and a background checks have made a difference, and of course the criminals still get them. I just find it a crying shame that this is a problem at all icon_sad.gif
    K9 Owned
    Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:31 am
    Forum Host
    Molly53 wrote:
    Another one in Atlanta: READ MORE

    Thank goodness nobody was killed.

    Great Britain had a series of violent events including a Sandy Hook type tragedy some years ago and this is what happened there: READ MORE It rather answers the question of "when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns".

    Thanks Molly - I does answer the question for me. It is as I thought - more folklore than fact.
    JoyfulCook
    Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:54 am
    Forum Host
    It makes me want to weep with frustration cos it seems to be a no win situation icon_sad.gif
    Molly53
    Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:08 am
    Forum Host
    The hostage situation in Alabama continues. I don't know why they don't slip some sleepy gas down the ventilation shaft.

    The bus driver's funeral was yesterday. So sad...he was a terrific guy. READ MORE (link) about him.
    K9 Owned
    Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:15 am
    Forum Host
    RIP Mr. Poland. The world has suffered a great loss with your passing.

    That poor little boy! I cannot even begin to imagine the terror he and his parents are experiencing. icon_cry.gif
    mums the word
    Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:07 pm
    Food.com Groupie
    Do they know that the child is still alive?
    Molly53
    Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:01 pm
    Forum Host
    Leggy Peggy
    Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:48 am
    Food.com Groupie
    JoyfulCook wrote:
    Terese wrote:
    Dib's wrote:
    Both the UK and Australia instituted strict gun control legislation which basically eliminated private gun ownership in 1997. However, neither countries' legislation had an impact on lowering violent crime, and in both cases violent crime actually went up in the years following the enactment of the gun legislation.

    Regarding the gun buyback scheme in Australia. Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard recently wrote an article for the New York Times. The quote below is from that article.

    "The Australian Institute of Criminology found that gun-related murders and suicides fell sharply after 1996. The American Law and Economics Review found that our gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides by 74 percent. In the 18 years before the 1996 reforms, Australia suffered 13 gun massacres — each with more than four victims — causing a total of 102 deaths. There has not been a single massacre in that category since 1996."

    Yes I agree. no massacres in the UK or here in Australia for years. BUT it seems to be the fact that these military style weapons can still be bought.

    Each persons background is checked here. but have to be honest. no matter where these awful crimes are being committed it starts with the attitude of the people and the casual way in which they seem to be carried out. I really dont know its going to be fixed either.

    Here in Australia and also in the UK each gun holder has to have a gun safe to lock their weapons in, this also makes it safe from anyone just deciding to take it out and use it illegally - wish I had a magic wand to wave over this ugly spate of crimes icon_sad.gif

    Moderator's note: Edited to fix quote formatting.


    I'm glad Terese set the record straight regarding the aftermath of the gun
    buyback In Australia. Of course, guns are still around in Australia, but the
    massacres aren't. Knives can be a problem, but a knife holder can't easily
    go on a killing spree.

    As for Switzerland—someone mentioned Switzerland. We have Swiss guests
    at the moment—a mother and daughter—and this topic came up at dinner.
    Some Swiss do store their guns at home, but many turn them in to a holding
    area. The daughter was most surprised to learn that her family did keep their
    gun at home. She had NO idea where it was. The mum said she knew
    where the 'machine'—meaning gun—was but had no idea where the bullets
    were.

    I wouldn't call the Swiss an argument for remaining armed to the teeth.
    Dib's
    Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:13 am
    Food.com Groupie
    Leggy Peggy wrote:

    I wouldn't call the Swiss an argument for remaining armed to the teeth.


    Who's "armed to the teeth"? Most gun owners are like my husband and myself. We don't have a collection, we have self protection. We have 2. Neither is on the list to be banned, we don't have high capacity mags...never felt like we needed them.

    For us it's quite simple.

    Don't illegally break into our home and you won't get legally shot, which is our last resort. You would first have to get past our alarm system, and if that doesn't warn you off your next step is to deal with a very pissed off, large dog. By now the police are on their way (we hope) and our dog has you busy. If not you have been verbally warned, and I know your not here to borrow a cup of sugar.

    Until the "I'm going to take what I want" attitude changes, until the legal system stops with the second chances crap and puts violent criminals away for a very long, long time, until our mental health system is sorted out or at least on a reasonable road to recovery, until this BS idea that "well, he only threatens and has not done anything so our hands are tied-who cares about his manifesto" is delt with, until our legal system decides to enforce the over 2000 existing gun laws, I prefer to have the odds in my favor, or at least on a somewhat level playing field with "the bad guy".
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